Philaseiten.de: Belege Schweiz -> Altdeutsche Staaten

Thema: Belege Schweiz -> Altdeutsche Staaten

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bayern klassisch	Am: 24.12.2014 19:56:28	Gelesen: 93440	# 32	@

@ deCoppet [#31]

Hello deCoppet,

again a very attractive letter from your collection.

Your letter [#29] was sent in closed bags through Bade, but Bade got only about 1 Kreuzer for their closed transit.

Thurn und Taxis (Frankfurt/Main) got 9 Kr. (30 Rappen/Centimes) from Switzerland. They paid internally 1 Kr. to Bade and kept 8 Kr. for themselves.

A very small postmark (17mm or so) should be a Distributions - Stempel from Frankfurt.

Your letter #31 was sent to Basel. Basel gave it to Bade for an open transit to other German States that had no contract with Switzerland. Bade got 9 Kreuzer, what you can see on the reverse side, written from Basel.

Baden kept those 9 Kr. an did not give them to Prussia.

Not so easy, but interesting relationships at those times.

Yours,
Ralph

deCoppet	Am: 24.12.2014 23:11:36	Gelesen: 93426	# 33	@

@ bayern klassisch [#32]

Hello Ralph. thank again for the very useful information. I am busy taking notes. ); >)

Merry Christmas to every one on this board. I wish I had understood how to post here a few years ago. Google translation is getting better, and having discussion for Swiss material is great!

One last for today - a little different. I enjoy looking for 1870 war items that transited Switzerland. This originated in Lyon, France, and was carried to Geneva where it was posted 6 February 1871 for Berlin. I must guess that this rate started 1/9/1868.

bayern klassisch	Am: 25.12.2014 00:15:25	Gelesen: 93417	# 34	@

@ deCoppet [#33]

Hello deCoppet,

another interesting letter - the sender saved 15 Centimes by giving it to the Swiss post, or more, because it could depend on the weight of the letter.

French letters were 40 Centimes at that time, but only up to 10g.

Swiss letteres to Germany were 25 Centimes / Rappen since 1.9.1868 up to 15g.

So when a letter was over 10g, but less than 15g, he could save up to 55 Centimes, what was quite a lot of money in those times.

To see the reverse side would be interesting too, as it could enter Germany via Bade (Bade was existing until 31.12.1871 in postal matters), or Wurttemberg, or even Bavaria (unlikely here).

Yours,
Ralph

deCoppet	Am: 25.12.2014 03:55:39	Gelesen: 93406	# 35	@

@ bayern klassisch [#34]

It's my belief that it went through Switzerland to avoid the French postal system which would have transited Paris. That city had been under siege and occupation. Being posted in Switzerland guaranteed the letter would arrive in Berlin in "normal" delivery time.

The reverse only shows a delivery date stamp 8/2 also 9 1/2 NM in 21mm circle.

Here are two letters addressed to southern France routed to avoid German occupied areas. They were both posted in Basel, Switzerland. Though they are not from Switzerland to German states, they seem to fit into this discussion. Maybe?

Originated 14 January 1871 St Amarin, France
posted Basel 18 January,
transit Lyon 19 January, no arrival marks.
Of special interest, the stamp has no perforations and was previously used [cut from another letter]. It is still glued to the original paper. Though very light, the date on the stamp can be read and is the same as the Basel to the left.

The second originated in Brussels dated 4 February 1871, posted Basel 6 February, transit Suisse Amb. Marseilles 7 Feb, arrived Cette 8 February on the reveres. Also on the reverse is a Basel forwarding agent Wenk & Plüss oval mark.

bayern klassisch	Am: 25.12.2014 10:08:08	Gelesen: 93385	# 36	@

@ deCoppet [#35]

Hello deCoppet,

Lyon - Berlin would have not transited Paris in 1871; from 1865 those letters from the south of France should be routed via Strasbourg by rail. But your letter [#33] would have transited Switzerland, if posted regularly in Lyon. This transit was not free, but both sides (France and the concerning German State) paid for it internally. I don´t know, if it was faster, to bring a letter so far (to Switzerland) and to post it there. I have some Bavarian (and one Austrian) letters that transited in wartime Switzerland and the delay to regular pre-war sendings was 1 or 2 days.

Your letters [#35] are wonderful und very interesting too. Especially the one with the recycled stamp - something, you won´t see again may be. As you see, the price was 30 Centimes for a regular letter from Switzerland to France. At that time, it was 20 Centimes for the German occupied zone until the French border and 20 Centimes for the French part of the journey, so one could save another 10 Centimes by doing this little transfer via Switzerland.

Very interesting letters and I hope you will continue with those for a long time. :-)

Yours,
Ralph

deCoppet	Am: 25.12.2014 19:41:12	Gelesen: 93346	# 37	@

@ bayern klassisch [#36]

Ralph, I am learning so much by posting here. Thank you for your time.

If the normal route for my Lyon letter was via Strasbourg, then that was obstructed by the Siege at Belfort The Siege ended two weeks later. The senders of the letter might have been told the only certain route to Berlin was using the Swiss postal system.

Here's another letter which originated in Altkirch, France, 9 December 1870, a non-direct route around the battle area to Mirecourt, France.
Entered the mails in Porrentruy 9 December, transited Basel 10 December [back], also with the oval Schweiz uber Baden on the back. No other routing date stamps. Is my guess that the letter went via Freiburg correct? And where would it have gone from there?

Even as late as July 1871 there was still disruption in postal routes.
Originated 3 July 1871 in Mulhouse, posted basel 5 July, transit Mont Cenis a Macon 6 July (via Geneva), received Reims 7 July. I have no idea of the routing once the letter left the Mont Cenis train.

Any information about routes will be very helpful. Thanks again.
Roger

bayern klassisch	Am: 25.12.2014 20:11:17	Gelesen: 93340	# 38	@

@ deCoppet [#37]

Hello Roger,

we all learn from each other, so it is phantastic to see your loveley letters.

I think you are right with the siege of Belfort - perfect to show the result of the siege; that is postal history of its best. :-)

I must see the backside of the letter from Altkirch to Mirecourt. Then I might be able to help you.

To your 2nd letter I can´t help you, sorry.

Yours,
Ralph

deCoppet	Am: 25.12.2014 21:55:40	Gelesen: 93326	# 39	@

@ bayern klassisch [#38]

The back side only has the Basel date stamp proving it went through on 10 December. And the Schweiz uber Baden oval. No other markings. There is no additional story on the back other than the letter headed north from Basel.

Enough for now of Franco-Prussian War. ); >)

The theme of this discussion - Schweiz to Old German States.

11 December 1867 Schaffhausen to Bischofswerda, Saxony.
Swiss Rayon I and German 3 distance = 40 centimes.
Only marking on back is Heidelberg-Basel 12 Dec 67 /Z26

bayern klassisch	Am: 25.12.2014 22:21:45	Gelesen: 93322	# 40	@

@ deCoppet [#39]

Hello Roger,

I´ve sent a scan or your letter from Altkirch to a friend of mine, who is the biggest expert in 1870/71. May be he will know, how the letter was sent and wheather 10 Kreuzer were the tax amount in those days (but I wonder, because former French parts never used Kreuzer to pay their postage).

This letter [#39] is a beauty again. 10 Rappen for Switzerland and 30 Rappen for Bade = 9 Kreuzer, als written from Basel in red.

Yours,
Ralph

bayern klassisch	Am: 27.12.2014 08:40:36	Gelesen: 93262	# 41	@

@ deCoppet [#37]

Hello Roger,

I´ve got an answer to the upper letter of [#37]:

Es handelt sich um einen Brief zwischen den Vertragsstaaten und der Schweiz, dessen Franko 2 Gr. = 25 C. = 30 Rappen betrug. Da im Departement Vogesen Gemeindeboten die Post austrugen, kassierte man vom Empfänger 10 Centimes.

Translation: It was a letter between the German States and Switzerland. Postage was 2 Groschen = 25 Centimes = 30 Rappen. As the Departement Voges had messengers of the local authorities, those had to be paid for their job with 10 Centimes, as written on the letter.

Hope I could help you.

Yours,
Ralph

deCoppet	Am: 27.12.2014 17:34:23	Gelesen: 93209	# 42	@

@ bayern klassisch [#41]

Ralph, thank you. That type of information can only be obtained from people who have studied for many years. I appreciate the information.

Here's something different and just fits into the time frame of this discussion thread.

A postal card from Schaffhausen 4 August 1871 to Lahr, Baden.
From October 1870 until December 31 1871 postal cards could only be sent at the letter rate of 25 centimes to Germany and Austria.

bayern klassisch	Am: 27.12.2014 18:11:25	Gelesen: 93190	# 43	@

@ deCoppet [#42]

Hello Roger,

you are right - my friend studied 1870/71 since the 1970s and hast seen thousands of letters in- and outbound. We can be happy that he helped us.

Your postcard ist very rare - a friend of mine is a huge Swiss - collector (old postal history) an has less than 10 of those postcards with 25 Rappen to foreign countries.

I would like to have on to Bavaria, but couldn´t get on in over 35 years.

Yours,
Ralph

Heinz 7	Am: 28.12.2014 21:37:32	Gelesen: 93102	# 44	@

@ bayern klassisch [#43]

Hallo Ralph,

ich bin beeindruckt, welches Wissen sich in diesen Beiträgen zeigt. Hut ab!

Ich nehme an, die Verwendung von Tübli-Briefen (Nr. 6) mit 25-Rappen Nominalen war nicht gar so selten wie die Postkarten mit Zusatzfrankatur.

Diese Ganzsache wurde gesendet am 6. April 1870 von Hausen nach Lindau/Deutschland. Rückseitig trägt er den Durchgangs-Stempel "ZÜRICH / 6 IV 70 XI /BR.EX." und einen Ankunftsstempel 7 APR. 1870 von Lindau.

Die Schweizer Stempel vorne sind AW Gr.13 B ("PD" mit Einfassung) und AW Gr. 104 Typ 3.

@ deCoppet [#42]

Hello Roger

I am impressed by the knowledge in These Posts. Congratulations.

I suppose the use of so-called "Tübli-Letters" with face-value 25 Cts. was not that much rare as your postcard. This postal stationery-item no. 6 was sent from Hausen am Albis to Lindau/Germany.

Kind regards
Heinz

bayern klassisch	Am: 28.12.2014 21:56:47	Gelesen: 93096	# 45	@

@ Heinz 7 [#44]

Hallo Heinz,

mit der Postkarte von Roger hier sind nur 4 (!) Postkarten zum Brieftarif nach Baden bekannt. Von den 25 Rappen Briefen gibt es viele Hundert, auch wenn nicht alle so schön sind, wie deiner nach Bayern aus der bekannten Spengelin - Korrespondenz.

Danke fürs Zeigen und liebe Grüsse von bayern klassisch

deCoppet	Am: 28.12.2014 22:24:40	Gelesen: 93090	# 46	@

@ Heinz 7 [#44]

Hello Heinz, Thank you for your comments. Ralph, I did not know that there were only 4 known to Baden. I bought it on eBay about 10 years ago for a very modest prices!

The Tübli letters are fun to collect when they are uprated for special uses. There were four values 5 [local letter], 10 [domestic over 10km], 25 international [Germany, Austria] and 30 [Italy and France]. These were the basic uses, so anything other are seeing people use what they have and adding stamps for other than intended use of the envelopes.

Here are two within the topic of this discussion.
8 August 1868 Uster to Lindau. If I have learned something from Ralph this week, I think 10 centimes Swiss internal, and 10 centimes [3 kreuzer] to Bavaria.

This is 27 November 1870 Basel to Freiberg im Brisgau. Swiss Rayon I to German Rayon 1, less than 10 meilen [75km]

deCoppet	Am: 28.12.2014 22:32:09	Gelesen: 93087	# 47	@

@ Heinz 7 [#44]

I only have one 25 centimes Tübli within this topic going to Hohenstein-Ernstthal.
Originated St. Gallen 31 1 1870, transit St. Gallen-Zürich Z8 [31/1/70], illegible circular receiving mark.

My other Tübli are later and the most interesting are uprated.

bayern klassisch	Am: 29.12.2014 08:02:05	Gelesen: 93077	# 48	@

@ deCoppet [#46]

Hello Roger,

another 2 nice envelopes, but I need to say something about them.

The first from Uster shows the Swiss handmark "3" for 3 Kreuzer, that the Swiss Post credited to Bavaria. In the old days, they wrote the credit for the German States on the reverse side very often, but later they wrote it on the front side. As Switzerland used the "P.D." handstamp for fully franked letters, the credit for other countries could not confuse others postal clerks about the taxes to be paid by the addressee (insufficiently prepaid letters).

Bavaria for instance never used the "P.D." handstamp on letters to Switzerland, so one had to pay attention, what was written on the letter/envelope - was it the "Weiterfranko" = credit for Switzerland, or was it insufficiently prepaid. Not an easy job at those times ...

The 2nd letter was a "R.L" - letter, Rayon Limitrophe.

20 Rappen were not a letter rate from 01.09.1868 (new postal contract), as letters were 25 Rappen in general. Your letter shows us the very rare 2nd weight of a rayon limitrophe letter within 7 miles (42,5 km) from Basel to Freiburg. Special with this letters was, that before the first of Sept. 1868, the rayon limitrophe was only 5 miles (37,5 km) and only letters within the rayon limitrophe had no distribution of the postage.

Each postage in the R.L., paid or unpaid, was given to the originating postoffice. So the Swiss Post got 20 Rappen, but Baden (from 1.1.1872 the German Reich) got nothing.

Rayon limitrophe letters are not rare, but to find a "heavyweight" is not easy. Congratulations for this rare item!

Yours,
Ralph

briefmarkenwirbler24	Am: 29.12.2014 10:01:43	Gelesen: 93070	# 49	@

@ Heinz 7 [#44]
@ bayern klassisch [#45]

Guten Morgen,

dann möchte ich euch auch mal einen meiner Tübli-Briefe vorstellen, der dem von Heinz sehr ähnlich ist:

Hierbei handelt es sich ebenfalls um eine 25 Rappen-Frankatur nach Lindau und auch genau an den selben Empfänger, was ja nicht verwunderlich ist, wenn es eine große Korrespondenz von diesem Herrn gibt, dieses Mal jedoch ein 10 Rappen Tübli-Umschlag mit 15 Rappen Zufrankatur, verschickt ein Jahr früher als der Brief von Heinz!

Vielleicht ist der Brief auch keine Seltenheit, aber immerhin ein schönes Exemplar! :)

Wie teilt sich hier die Taxe auf?

@ deCoppet [#46]

Hello Roger,

very nice letters, which you have shown us!
I can show you a Tübli-letter too, in this case from Winterthur to Lindau!
The letter is stamped with 5 Rappen of the Sitting Helvetia and with 10 Rappen of the Sitting Helvetia in combination with a 10 Rappen Tübli-letter, also addressed to Mr.Spengelin :)!

Do you speek french, too, or should I say
<<Est-ce que tu parles francais?>>

LG

Kevin

deCoppet	Am: 29.12.2014 19:29:41	Gelesen: 93006	# 50	@

@ briefmarkenwirbler24 [#49]

Hello Kevin, Your tübli is a very nice clean example of the letter rate. I find tübli interesting because it means the sender of the envelopes available, but need to use stamps to create payment for a new different purpose. Keep you eyes out, sometimes they are less expensive because they look worse, but as you see, sometimes they can be rare. I did not know my RL were double rate until Ralph explained them, nor did I know the scarcity.

I'm sorry I do not communicate well in French, though I did learn some basics many, many years ago in school. I can not read or write German, but I do understand many German philatelic terms. Google translations are sometimes very good, but Google does not know philatelic terms. So, between Google and myself, I understand most German writing.Talking in incomprehensible in French and German. Sorry.

Here is a straight forward folded letter Zürich 14 February 1865 to Auerbach, Saxony, [ausgabe 16 II]. There are two transit marks on the back, the Schweiz unber baden oval, and CH Bad Bahnpost 15 Feb 65 Z12. I think the rate is from Switzerland 1 to Rayon over 20 meilen = 40 centimes.

deCoppet	Am: 29.12.2014 19:33:10	Gelesen: 93003	# 51	@

@ bayern klassisch [#48]

Hello Ralph, thank you for the message on my web site. It is THE FIRST. ); >)

You have been explaining different items for me. Do you know why this card has a 10 centimes stamp? Is this a misunderstanding of the rules, therefore, an overpayment?

This one I understand. Special rate to Belgium starting 1 June 1874, so valid for 13 months before UPU standard of 10 centimes.

bayern klassisch	Am: 29.12.2014 20:00:23	Gelesen: 92996	# 52	@

@ briefmarkenwirbler24 [#49]

Hallo Kevin,

dein schönes Briefchen mit 25 Rappen wurde in 10 Rappen für die Schweiz und 15 Rappen für Bayern (wenn er über Lindau instradierte) aufgeteilt. Alle 25 Rappenbriefe wurden in 10 Rappen für die Schweiz und 15 Rappen für Bayern, oder Baden, oder Württemberg oder dem Deutschen Reich aufgeteilt.

Liebe Grüsse von bayern klassisch

bayern klassisch	Am: 29.12.2014 20:02:16	Gelesen: 92995	# 53	@

@ deCoppet [#50]

Hello Roger,

another nice letter - the rate for the German part of the journey of 9 Kreuzer was written in the upper left corner of the cover.

Everything you wrote is correct.

Yours,
Ralph

bayern klassisch	Am: 29.12.2014 20:06:11	Gelesen: 92993	# 54	@

@ deCoppet [#51]

Hello Roger,

I don´t know a 15 Rappen rate at that time. There has been a mistake, what is always nice to see, as I love all mistakes of everyone in the postoffices.

I am proud to be the first commentator on your website.

Yours,
Ralph

briefmarkenwirbler24	Am: 30.12.2014 12:31:26	Gelesen: 92933	# 55	@

@ deCoppet [#50]

Hello Roger,

thank you for your comment!

I can speak english, french and a little bit spanish, which I have been learning since 2 years :)!

@ bayern klassisch [#52]

Hallo Ralph,

vielen Dank für die schöne Erklärung!

LG

Kevin

remstal	Am: 31.12.2014 15:50:47	Gelesen: 92863	# 56	@

Hallo liebe Forumsfreunde,

in dieser Reihe ein eingeschriebener Brief der 2. Gewichtsstufe ( bis ca. 250 g) aus St. Gallen 11.7.1870 nach Kierspe im Königreich Preußen. Portogerecht freigemacht mit 50 Rappen für die Brieftaxe + 25 Rappen Einschreibzuschlag. Vom Gesamtfrankaturwert 75 Rappen erhielt Preußen 30 Rappen, 45 verblieben der Schweiz.

Alles Gute für 2015, remstal

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